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Message from Calico at Sunday, 20-Mar-11 12:20:37 GMT
Hi Dick,
Thanks again for sharing your exotic radio, facilities *and* views on doing radio with us all!
If you think it's worth the trouble and trying, a flag or even a pennant type antenna is astonishingly broadband (Medium Waves up to -easily- 40m)
In my urban environment, I use a fir-tree as one support and a fishing pole as the other, non conductive supports ideally. For termination, I am happy with 3 x 320 Ω soldered in series. Step-down balun 16:1 to get it down to about 50 Ω, then coax to home, preamplifier and radio. My little pennant's max dimensions are 8m long and about 4m tall and gives me RX of up to about 8000 km on Medium Waves. I wish I could have more room, bigger capture area, more excitation Voltage and Current, more dBs, less need for amplification. Would you have any sort of preamplifier, by the way?
If it's OK to contact you by email, I can send you photos and documentation not only on Flags and Pennans but also on Lazy-U (G8ON) an end fed loop sort of antenna with its current max away from home?
Interesting utilization of your stays as a receiving system by the way. Are they about 10-12m long each ?
From what I gather the stays are gathered directly to the metal anchors of the tower. But if they are not insulated from the anchors, then they are both at ground potential. May it be an idea to isolate them with dog-bones maybe from the ground? Then we can use the mast/tower guy wire supports for 360 degrees coverage by converting these wires into non-resonant V-beams for example?
I like your idea about ladder line. It can even help us feed the antenna by 180 degrees out of phase -by connecting the two wires of the Vee to opposite conductors of the ladder line. Down at the shack, use one of the two ends of the ladder line, means we use the directivity of only the one leg of the vee beam, just as a long wire. The longer the wires we can extend from the top of the mast, the bigger the bandwidth of the antenna, too.
Use both ends of the ladder line (with insulated ends at the ground but not terminated) and get bi-directional reception. Terminated ends (500 Ω each leg), uni-directional with nulls to listen to desired direction only.
Here for passing the cables (including the ladder line) I use an idea of an old friend. I have sliding windows, and live in rented accommodation. Have cut a thin plunk of wood to fit in the frame of the window. Then instead of drilling holes in the window frame/wall, I have drilled openings in this wooden plunk. Being non-conductive, it doesn't affect the ladder line, which enters the house via the holes in the plunk. Then I slide the window shut against this plunk, and even my landlord doesn't mind.
73
Tim, Dorset, UK :)
Thanks again for sharing your exotic radio, facilities *and* views on doing radio with us all!
If you think it's worth the trouble and trying, a flag or even a pennant type antenna is astonishingly broadband (Medium Waves up to -easily- 40m)
In my urban environment, I use a fir-tree as one support and a fishing pole as the other, non conductive supports ideally. For termination, I am happy with 3 x 320 Ω soldered in series. Step-down balun 16:1 to get it down to about 50 Ω, then coax to home, preamplifier and radio. My little pennant's max dimensions are 8m long and about 4m tall and gives me RX of up to about 8000 km on Medium Waves. I wish I could have more room, bigger capture area, more excitation Voltage and Current, more dBs, less need for amplification. Would you have any sort of preamplifier, by the way?
If it's OK to contact you by email, I can send you photos and documentation not only on Flags and Pennans but also on Lazy-U (G8ON) an end fed loop sort of antenna with its current max away from home?
Interesting utilization of your stays as a receiving system by the way. Are they about 10-12m long each ?
From what I gather the stays are gathered directly to the metal anchors of the tower. But if they are not insulated from the anchors, then they are both at ground potential. May it be an idea to isolate them with dog-bones maybe from the ground? Then we can use the mast/tower guy wire supports for 360 degrees coverage by converting these wires into non-resonant V-beams for example?
I like your idea about ladder line. It can even help us feed the antenna by 180 degrees out of phase -by connecting the two wires of the Vee to opposite conductors of the ladder line. Down at the shack, use one of the two ends of the ladder line, means we use the directivity of only the one leg of the vee beam, just as a long wire. The longer the wires we can extend from the top of the mast, the bigger the bandwidth of the antenna, too.
Use both ends of the ladder line (with insulated ends at the ground but not terminated) and get bi-directional reception. Terminated ends (500 Ω each leg), uni-directional with nulls to listen to desired direction only.
Here for passing the cables (including the ladder line) I use an idea of an old friend. I have sliding windows, and live in rented accommodation. Have cut a thin plunk of wood to fit in the frame of the window. Then instead of drilling holes in the window frame/wall, I have drilled openings in this wooden plunk. Being non-conductive, it doesn't affect the ladder line, which enters the house via the holes in the plunk. Then I slide the window shut against this plunk, and even my landlord doesn't mind.
73
Tim, Dorset, UK :)
Message from Calico at Sunday, 20-Mar-11 13:50:43 GMT
Hi again,
Re-reading here the bit of your post, regarding using the guy wires with an ATU, so for reasons of brevity maybe it wasn't mentioned that you already must have insulators at the bottom of the stay cables. Apologies for any misunderstanding! :s
So if you've checked, is there any resonance point perhaps you've discovered in this current configuration?
Can the bases of the guy-wires be connected together, so that a Delta loop is then formed. Maybe if an in-between stay was skipped, then the Delta loop could be become even wider, with bigger capture area?
Then instead of feeding the antenna at the top apex which will be close to the metals of the Yagi and the mast itself, we could feed the loop at the most convenient bottom corner of the Δ-loop with ladder line for broad-banding it even more?
This would give us vertical polarization and about 27 degrees take off angle, great for DX?
Don't know what type of ATU you are using there. Here was using various SGCs, but they are a pain re MW or simultaneous broadband to go through, so I removed it and RX was fine with MW too. I had used a high saturation resistant QRO balun in the past from the US (I can dig it out and find its details if you want) with ladder line and a DX-CC Alpha Delta.
Thus if complete run of ladder line is not possible, this can minimize the length of RG-213?
Just a few thoughts and cheers again for the exotic radio ,
Tim (Dorset,UK)
Re-reading here the bit of your post, regarding using the guy wires with an ATU, so for reasons of brevity maybe it wasn't mentioned that you already must have insulators at the bottom of the stay cables. Apologies for any misunderstanding! :s
So if you've checked, is there any resonance point perhaps you've discovered in this current configuration?
Can the bases of the guy-wires be connected together, so that a Delta loop is then formed. Maybe if an in-between stay was skipped, then the Delta loop could be become even wider, with bigger capture area?
Then instead of feeding the antenna at the top apex which will be close to the metals of the Yagi and the mast itself, we could feed the loop at the most convenient bottom corner of the Δ-loop with ladder line for broad-banding it even more?
This would give us vertical polarization and about 27 degrees take off angle, great for DX?
Don't know what type of ATU you are using there. Here was using various SGCs, but they are a pain re MW or simultaneous broadband to go through, so I removed it and RX was fine with MW too. I had used a high saturation resistant QRO balun in the past from the US (I can dig it out and find its details if you want) with ladder line and a DX-CC Alpha Delta.
Thus if complete run of ladder line is not possible, this can minimize the length of RG-213?
Just a few thoughts and cheers again for the exotic radio ,
Tim (Dorset,UK)
Message from zs6ro at Sunday, 20-Mar-11 15:23:49 GMT
Tim, interesting stuff ... Yes, all stays are insulated at both ends - also they are all non-resonant to any amateur band .. If the tower is 12 metres huigh and the length from the base of the tower/mast to any end-stay-point is greater than 12 metres, then each 'insulated' stay length is longer than 12 metres long ..
Your comment regarding tying one end-point to another end-point sounded attractive except that the wire would travel across areas where family and I walk, run, fool around etc, and this could cause problems especially over the pool area .. the other end-points would be obstructed by buildings no matter what - not practical ..
I've read about the terminstion type flag mast arrangement and the termination resistor value depends to a great deal on the soil type - of course one would experiment to get the optimum value - until it rains *Sigh ...
You are welcome to email me Tim (I assume you can pick up the email address from my profile??) ... What I will do soon is get a ladder-line constructed and then evaulate same ... By the way, my windows are not of the sash-type - they are metal frames with large pieces of glass .. My intention is to ladder-line from feed-point of antenna to a small 3 metre mast outside my window (fastened to apex of roof) and then fit a plastic box to mast - run the ladder-line into box and come out with SO-258 socket at bottom for RG-213 into shack (less than 5 metres of coax) ... Then will 'experiment' in box with some form of matching unit .. Will first check impedance of installation at various frequencies throughout the bands ...
Oh yes, the ATU's used here are for transmitting on the lower bands and are of the L-type ... One ATU is the Icom AT-4 which does it's own thing automatically and I use this for 160, 80 and 40 using a IC-756 Pro II ... First time I tried this arrangement I worked a ZS2 (Port Elizabeth +-1200km south) on 160 metres at around 19:00 UTC !!! .. Was quite chuffed with that *Grin ...
73, Dick ZS6RO
Your comment regarding tying one end-point to another end-point sounded attractive except that the wire would travel across areas where family and I walk, run, fool around etc, and this could cause problems especially over the pool area .. the other end-points would be obstructed by buildings no matter what - not practical ..
I've read about the terminstion type flag mast arrangement and the termination resistor value depends to a great deal on the soil type - of course one would experiment to get the optimum value - until it rains *Sigh ...
You are welcome to email me Tim (I assume you can pick up the email address from my profile??) ... What I will do soon is get a ladder-line constructed and then evaulate same ... By the way, my windows are not of the sash-type - they are metal frames with large pieces of glass .. My intention is to ladder-line from feed-point of antenna to a small 3 metre mast outside my window (fastened to apex of roof) and then fit a plastic box to mast - run the ladder-line into box and come out with SO-258 socket at bottom for RG-213 into shack (less than 5 metres of coax) ... Then will 'experiment' in box with some form of matching unit .. Will first check impedance of installation at various frequencies throughout the bands ...
Oh yes, the ATU's used here are for transmitting on the lower bands and are of the L-type ... One ATU is the Icom AT-4 which does it's own thing automatically and I use this for 160, 80 and 40 using a IC-756 Pro II ... First time I tried this arrangement I worked a ZS2 (Port Elizabeth +-1200km south) on 160 metres at around 19:00 UTC !!! .. Was quite chuffed with that *Grin ...
73, Dick ZS6RO
Message from Calico at Sunday, 20-Mar-11 17:04:37 GMT
Lovely, I would be chuffed to bits too if my new antenna worked straight away stations as far away as 1200 km on Top Band, good job Dick ! :-D
As for optimum resistor value of the flag/pennant type, don't let that worry you. I have experimented with my Pennant (half the capture area of a flag) with various values, not noticed a significant difference.
The critical bit in these loops is the impedance matching. And because it is a loop, although the ground conductivity may affect a little bit the optimal value of the termination resistor, it's nothing nearly as important as in Beverages or Kaz/SuperKaz or long wire, all of which are ground dependent antennas; that's why I love loops, plus that they are quiet and resistant to static damages of front ends! :)
I have some more ideas about the Δ-loop, but more by email direct, rather than via-bureau!
73 for now,
Tim (Dorset, UK)
As for optimum resistor value of the flag/pennant type, don't let that worry you. I have experimented with my Pennant (half the capture area of a flag) with various values, not noticed a significant difference.
The critical bit in these loops is the impedance matching. And because it is a loop, although the ground conductivity may affect a little bit the optimal value of the termination resistor, it's nothing nearly as important as in Beverages or Kaz/SuperKaz or long wire, all of which are ground dependent antennas; that's why I love loops, plus that they are quiet and resistant to static damages of front ends! :)
I have some more ideas about the Δ-loop, but more by email direct, rather than via-bureau!
73 for now,
Tim (Dorset, UK)
Message from AvatarModulator at Thursday, 31-Mar-11 07:36:19 GMT
Great to have the ability to do African DXing, also with your tuner.
Message from zs6ro at Thursday, 31-Mar-11 08:41:46 GMT
Glad you like the tuner AvatarModulator .... Have fun ...
73, Dick ZS6RO
73, Dick ZS6RO
Message from zs6ro at Thursday, 31-Mar-11 10:30:27 GMT
Hmmmm ... I see that my tuner (PCR-1000) went offline yesterday 30 March 2011 at about 14:30 UTC !!! ... Touching the case felt cold .. It usually ran warm to the touch ...
I've stripped it down, but nothing seems burnt .. Used a different 12 volt supply ... After awhile some components feel warm which again is normal ...
I don't have any COM serial ports on my Windows PC while trying to run the old software that came with the PCR-1000, but I am trying a USB to serial cable (which works with other serial port device here) and the software doesn't pick up the tuner .. I'm not sure if I need hardware control, XON/XOFF, or NONE control on the PCR-1000 ... I've tried them all but no luck ...
Let me continue ... Please be patient !!
73, Dick ZS6RO
Johannesburg
South Africa.
I've stripped it down, but nothing seems burnt .. Used a different 12 volt supply ... After awhile some components feel warm which again is normal ...
I don't have any COM serial ports on my Windows PC while trying to run the old software that came with the PCR-1000, but I am trying a USB to serial cable (which works with other serial port device here) and the software doesn't pick up the tuner .. I'm not sure if I need hardware control, XON/XOFF, or NONE control on the PCR-1000 ... I've tried them all but no luck ...
Let me continue ... Please be patient !!
73, Dick ZS6RO
Johannesburg
South Africa.
Message from zs6ro at Thursday, 31-Mar-11 10:58:49 GMT
OK, found a 'newer' PCR-1000 control program and have it running on my Windows PC (Windows-7) and using the USB to Serial port cable, the PCR-1000 is working 100% - Phew !!!!!! .. Better screw the lid back on ....
Now to look at the Linux box serial port and see if that may have blown ... I'll be back (Hmmm, sounds familiar) ...
73, Dick ZS6RO
Johannesburg
South Africa.
Now to look at the Linux box serial port and see if that may have blown ... I'll be back (Hmmm, sounds familiar) ...
73, Dick ZS6RO
Johannesburg
South Africa.
Message from zs6ro at Thursday, 31-Mar-11 11:33:01 GMT
OK - all back on-air again *Sigh ....
Weird, but when I placed the tuner back onto the Linux box's serial cable and applied 12v power, "Hey Presto", the darn thing started to work !!!!
I had rebooted the Linux box initially when I discovered that the tuner was offline and that didn't help .. So not sure what the problem was !!! .. Maybe the PCR-1000 got 'stuck' somehow and by connecting the tuner to my 'local' Windows PC, it became 'unstuck' !! .. Strange, as I've never had that sort of problem before ...
Ah well, the tuner is back - have fun ...
73, Dick ZS6RO
Johannesburg
South Africa.
Weird, but when I placed the tuner back onto the Linux box's serial cable and applied 12v power, "Hey Presto", the darn thing started to work !!!!
I had rebooted the Linux box initially when I discovered that the tuner was offline and that didn't help .. So not sure what the problem was !!! .. Maybe the PCR-1000 got 'stuck' somehow and by connecting the tuner to my 'local' Windows PC, it became 'unstuck' !! .. Strange, as I've never had that sort of problem before ...
Ah well, the tuner is back - have fun ...
73, Dick ZS6RO
Johannesburg
South Africa.
Message from RX-Hogger at Sunday, 30-Oct-11 02:12:47 GMT
Hi ZS6RO, is there maybe a 2nd optional antenna available in your receiver node site for testing and comparing on different bands? Thanks & 73, AMFMLIST (Björn)
Last edited by AMFMLIST at Sunday, 30-Oct-11 02:14:22 UTC
Last edited by AMFMLIST at Sunday, 30-Oct-11 02:14:22 UTC
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